The quantum paradox in watch collecting
Only quantum physics can explain how a Seestern watch, which pays homage to the 1965 Seiko 62MAS that had a 6217A caliber back then, now includes a far superior Seiko NH35 caliber, sapphire crystal, and better bezel action than the original Seiko.
Now, Seiko releases a reissue of its 62MAS at a price of over $1,200, while Seestern sells it for a tenth of that price.
Only quantum physics can explain this phenomenon in the watch industry. I can't.
83 comments
Sort by
Hotdonkee 🫏 Watch my Watch!
Obsessed with watches…
Mexico City, CDMX, Mexico
Member since
Last active: 30 min ago
16.00 cm
That's why I don't buy mainstream brands anymore. Since I've discovered these homage Chinese specials it's been a game changer for my collection. It's saved me a SHIT load of money 😂🤣😆
That's why I don't buy mainstream brands anymore. Since I've discovered these homage Chinese specials it's been a game changer for my collection. It's saved me a SHIT load of money 😂🤣😆
Exactly…
I have this watch and it's so-so for me. tbh the case finishing is just not that refined. It's kind of square-ish and it doesn't have the sort of fine polished chamfers that I'm used to seeing in modern watches.
To be fair, it's likely period-accurate to how the original 62MAS was made. But I just prefer the refinement of a modern watch.
It doesn't require quantum physics, just basic economics.
Seiko sells you a name, a reputation, and arguably a better product. The Seiko isn't using an base 4R35, and has a real warranty.
Seastern sells you an approximation, at a just above cost, because they don't have to worry about reputation or warranty. Don't like your watch? Too bad, spend another $120 and hope for better results...
Edit: I'm not saying this to crap on Seastern, just to highlight they both companies are offering different products, and different expectations.
Technically quantum physics can only explain it until you try to explain it and then that attempt changes the explanation.
It doesn't require quantum physics, just basic economics.
Seiko sells you a name, a reputation, and arguably a better product. The Seiko isn't using an base 4R35, and has a real warranty.
Seastern sells you an approximation, at a just above cost, because they don't have to worry about reputation or warranty. Don't like your watch? Too bad, spend another $120 and hope for better results...
Edit: I'm not saying this to crap on Seastern, just to highlight they both companies are offering different products, and different expectations.
That was what I thought before placing a Seestern V3 side by side with my Seiko 62MAS reissue. Blurred lines.
That was what I thought before placing a Seestern V3 side by side with my Seiko 62MAS reissue. Blurred lines.
I'm not saying Seastern makes a bad watch, but comparing a watch with a questionable warranty alongside a recognized brand with mas appeal is not a fair comparison.
It's like me saying my Marathon SSNav is a better watch than a SMP300, because it's cheaper, and more accurate. While both points are true, the SMP300 is still an Omega, and my SSNav is a Marathon...
Edit to add: at more than 14mm thick, it's more chunky than my GSAR... That's a thick watch.
I'm not saying Seastern makes a bad watch, but comparing a watch with a questionable warranty alongside a recognized brand with mas appeal is not a fair comparison.
It's like me saying my Marathon SSNav is a better watch than a SMP300, because it's cheaper, and more accurate. While both points are true, the SMP300 is still an Omega, and my SSNav is a Marathon...
Edit to add: at more than 14mm thick, it's more chunky than my GSAR... That's a thick watch.
Yes…true…and agree with you, but ten times price difference is just too much…having the same caliber brand.
It doesn't require quantum physics, just basic economics.
Seiko sells you a name, a reputation, and arguably a better product. The Seiko isn't using an base 4R35, and has a real warranty.
Seastern sells you an approximation, at a just above cost, because they don't have to worry about reputation or warranty. Don't like your watch? Too bad, spend another $120 and hope for better results...
Edit: I'm not saying this to crap on Seastern, just to highlight they both companies are offering different products, and different expectations.
Yes…basic economics, but it is just a fun fact that Seiko is the provider of the caliber of an improved version of a homage of their own watch reissued by them at a ridiculous price 🤪
I have both the Serstern 62mas and the Seiko SPB 143. The Seiko is a far superior watch, but that said, the Seestern is a nice little watch, saphire crystal, screw down crown, Seiko movement, nice strap, etc
I have both the Serstern 62mas and the Seiko SPB 143. The Seiko is a far superior watch, but that said, the Seestern is a nice little watch, saphire crystal, screw down crown, Seiko movement, nice strap, etc
Agreed. And on top of that the SPB143 is not technically the reissue, it's their mid-range reinterpretation. The SLA series contains the reissues and is made on the Grand Seiko line - yet another order of magnitude higher quality. (Not knocking your 143; I have it as well, in addition to an SLA043.) (Also not knocking the Seestern; it's great what you get for the money but there's no objective comparison.)
Doesn't take physics. Seestern rides the wave of the Seiko 62mas. Seiko paid designers, they paid for the factories for the movements, dials etc. they pay for marketing. They pay for staff the list goes on and on. Seestern Did they have a team for research and development to create a new movement? No. Did they build a factory to pump out movements? No. Do they paid money to be ISO Certified? No. Many homage companies can't survive without a Seiko movement.
The indices at 1,2,4,5,7,8,10,11 just look slightly too thick/wide for me. I know I’m being nitpicky, but I don’t know if I could get past that 😅
Also I can get the SPB143 used for 700 Euros with the bracelet and an FKM rubber strap. The Seestern on bracelet with an extra rubber strap shipped and with taxes would cost me about 200 Euros. So realistically it’s more like 3.5x the price, which the Seiko would be worth for me.
I have this watch and it's so-so for me. tbh the case finishing is just not that refined. It's kind of square-ish and it doesn't have the sort of fine polished chamfers that I'm used to seeing in modern watches.
To be fair, it's likely period-accurate to how the original 62MAS was made. But I just prefer the refinement of a modern watch.
That's directly taken from the 62mas and the Seiko re-issues share the same design.
Doesn't take physics. Seestern rides the wave of the Seiko 62mas. Seiko paid designers, they paid for the factories for the movements, dials etc. they pay for marketing. They pay for staff the list goes on and on. Seestern Did they have a team for research and development to create a new movement? No. Did they build a factory to pump out movements? No. Do they paid money to be ISO Certified? No. Many homage companies can't survive without a Seiko movement.
A couple of issues here. I would not be so sure Seestern does not make movements; they are associated with Sugess, and Sugess even makes tourbillons. But the NH35 is cheap and popular among the homage-buying crowd.
Second, I do not think ISO certifies any watches, that's not what they do. They define international standards of all kinds, including standards for watches; but they themselves do not certify any products, though they give guidelines which certifying bodies are meant to follow when they check products against an ISO standard. Not sure what countries even have certifying bodies for watch specs, Switzerland probably, but elsewhere?
And if not you can have a lovely word salad.
right. i think. but right.
Let me tell you a tale of two watches. One of them is accurate. One of them is not. One of them has a sapphire crystal one of them does not. One of them has a ceramic bezel, the other one has not. Both have Seiko manufactured movements. One cost $450 One cost $95. Why is the $95 watch objectively the better watch?
Great explanation 👏👏👏👏👏
but in practice they make - to me - no difference. the 7s in my sk013 is accurate to +45s/week. it's 15 years old, it used to be +30s/week.
don't know about you, but hopefully, that is enough?
no idea what i'm on about. i'm drunk.
I'm not a movement snob, I was just pointing out that they were different grades of movements.
It's up to each person to determine what value they assign to different aspects of a watch. For some movement, brand name, etc., are important, for others it's more about looks and cost.
Seiko's base movement, the 62MAS versions use 6R movements, which are higher grade movements.
My point is Seastern used the same popular Seiko movement that a lot of watch makers around the world have in their watch.
My point is Seastern used the same popular Seiko movement that a lot of watch makers around the world have in their watch.
True, and my original point was that Seiko was using a better movement, and has the pedigree to charge more money because they designed the watch. The Seastern wouldn't exist if Seiko hadn't made the 62 MAS in the first place...
I'm not against homages/copies, but lets keep them in perspective. Seastern is copying Seiko's work, using cheap labour, and cheaper parts to sell an approximation. As a functional tool I suspect the Seastern is a great watch and a great value, but it's low cost copy of a better watch. That may not hold any value for you, but for others it does.
I'm done with this thread.. It makes me feel icky to defend Seiko... 🤣
i bought this watch. compared to other 38mm divers it was heavy, crystal hazy, crown wobbly. it stopped after a month. seestern ghosted me. but it was the most accurate NH i've ever had, and i still have the rubber strap which is superb.
but quantum mechanics doesn't explain it. the only thing we can say is that we can't know BOTH its amplitude and beat rate at the same time.
amp * br >= planck/4pi
so there ... we have no idea.
An excellent example of how, when you deal with these knock off mobs, you're not really dealing with a proper company; you're not dealing with a real brand. That name on the dial? Oh sure, it's pretending to be a brand, but all the things you associate with a brand just aren't there. Which is why I kind of laugh when people declare, "I own a {insert knock off brand here}!" like it's somehow on par with a real brand. Because, as this point shows, it's not just what's on your wrist that a brand represents, but the customer service, the years of R&D, etc. All that stuff that was hard fought and won over many decades, which can't be usurped by some knock off raiding the parts bins of the lower tier factories.
It’s important to ask the question of what you want for your collection. I personally have no desire for homages, even if they are objectively better than the original (and TBH, many are), I want the original watch with a bit of a story or history, (I do military watches) and in that basis the accuracy isn’t a deal breaker for me, especially as a daily wind or readjustment is part of the pleasure for me. If a selection of accurate homages is your thing, then fill your boots!
I get you. It's a really interesting area of discussion as it raises many questions around ethics, quality, value perception, elitism, education, objectivity.....
San Martin and Pagani have made some attempt, with some models: if not totally original designs, a reinterpretation of a theme, and inside use the reliable and serviceable NH35, and charge what some people might argue is enough money for a solid and well-made watch. Most microbrands have some Diver design that's just a variant and not original - 'bread and butter' models that people will buy. Quite a few have some perhaps wacky, but original designs. The only thing I'm sure about and dislike is when something is an absolute piece of junk and a complete waste of resources (watches or otherwise).
Taking a helicopter view, there is an absurdity around the whole thing, at both ends of the scale.
I get you. It's a really interesting area of discussion as it raises many questions around ethics, quality, value perception, elitism, education, objectivity.....
San Martin and Pagani have made some attempt, with some models: if not totally original designs, a reinterpretation of a theme, and inside use the reliable and serviceable NH35, and charge what some people might argue is enough money for a solid and well-made watch. Most microbrands have some Diver design that's just a variant and not original - 'bread and butter' models that people will buy. Quite a few have some perhaps wacky, but original designs. The only thing I'm sure about and dislike is when something is an absolute piece of junk and a complete waste of resources (watches or otherwise).
Taking a helicopter view, there is an absurdity around the whole thing, at both ends of the scale.
“Taking a helicopter view, there is an absurdity around the whole thing, at both ends of the scale.”
Exactly…we have to stop thinking about what others think and stat using the value ecuation:
value = (what I can afford)/(what I like) > 1
An excellent example of how, when you deal with these knock off mobs, you're not really dealing with a proper company; you're not dealing with a real brand. That name on the dial? Oh sure, it's pretending to be a brand, but all the things you associate with a brand just aren't there. Which is why I kind of laugh when people declare, "I own a {insert knock off brand here}!" like it's somehow on par with a real brand. Because, as this point shows, it's not just what's on your wrist that a brand represents, but the customer service, the years of R&D, etc. All that stuff that was hard fought and won over many decades, which can't be usurped by some knock off raiding the parts bins of the lower tier factories.
right. i think it's probably 2 or 3 production facilities and 50 brands. they're all connected. i just got unlucky, but i suspect the watches are fine. as long as you don't pay too much.
“Taking a helicopter view, there is an absurdity around the whole thing, at both ends of the scale.”
Exactly…we have to stop thinking about what others think and stat using the value ecuation:
value = (what I can afford)/(what I like) > 1
I like the equation!
right. i think it's probably 2 or 3 production facilities and 50 brands. they're all connected. i just got unlucky, but i suspect the watches are fine. as long as you don't pay too much.
Or just stay away from them completely.
“Taking a helicopter view, there is an absurdity around the whole thing, at both ends of the scale.”
Exactly…we have to stop thinking about what others think and stat using the value ecuation:
value = (what I can afford)/(what I like) > 1
Spot on Alfredo, I have a simple ethos….. i buy em because I like em regardless of name or the little elves running around powering them….
Spot on Alfredo, I have a simple ethos….. i buy em because I like em regardless of name or the little elves running around powering them….
I know…I know…That’s mine too my friend. Abrazo!
Great topic for great watch. Such a fun topic.
#letthewatchdoallthetalking